Does anyone have any more information on Siemens? They seem to have laid off about 17000 people this summer internationally, and their medical devision is to lay off about 400. How will this affect their CCHIT-certified EHR?
URL: http://histalk2.com/2008/08/13/readers-write-81308/ and http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/07/09/siemens-si-more-than-lay-offs-a-strong-sign-of-recession/
This is not just some esoteric subject for my "CCHIT Hall of Fame", but the hospital that I admit to, Virginia Hospital Center just spent $14 million dollars on their hospital EMR!
URL: http://histalk2.com/2008/08/14/news-81508/u
As a CCHIT Certified product, Siemen's INVISION Clinicals V27.0 with Siemens Pharmacy V24.0 and Med Administration Check V24.0 had been tested and passed CCHIT inspection of 100 percent of a set of criteria for CPOE and eMAR. Siemens also received full CCHIT Certified status for Soarian(R) Clinicals V2.0C5 with Siemens Pharmacy and Med Administration Check(TM) V24.0 on December 19, 2007. So that's not one, but two CCHIT seals of "assurance". (URL: http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS133500+01-Feb-2008+PRN20080201)
Concerning the "CCHIT Hall of Fame", I will be removing 4 CCHIT-certified EHRs that have done exceptionally well recently, after the major recession in the EHR market improved:
Athena Health Greenway NextGen Cerner There are several that have had some difficulties- QuadraMed Emdeon (not on poster yet) Catalis Sage (not on poster yet) Siemens (not on poster yet)
There are several that have had some difficulties-
Al Borges, M.D.
● Oncologist in a Small Group Practice in Virginia
● My website URL: http://msofficeemrproject.com/
alborg: I will be removing 4 CCHIT-certified EHRs that have done exceptionally well recently Greenway
I will be removing 4 CCHIT-certified EHRs that have done exceptionally well recently
Greenway
How has Greenway done well ?
Hi Jason:
Because they are a privately heald company, financial data is hard to find! I did find an article that said that Q2 sales were 52% above the same quarter in 2007 and 83% above 2006. URL: http://histalk2.com/2008/02/16/monday-morning-update-021808/ That's not a bad showing.
The poster now is part of a small 3 page Word document, with all the news citations!
Layoffs Start at SiemensAugust 14, 2008 Expected layoffs at Siemens Healthcare in Malvern, Pa., have started, a company spokesperson confirms to Health Data Management.
Siemens' corporate parent, Germany-based Siemens AG, announced last month it would cut 16,750 jobs worldwide, including 2,800 from its health care unit.
The job reductions include about 350 employees in Malvern who work in the company's health care information technology unit, which is less than 10% of its I.T. workforce. Affected employees were notified on Tuesday and will leave their positions in mid-September, according to the spokesperson.
Some employees will be offered positions elsewhere in Siemens. The remaining will receive severance, counseling, and career and job placement services.
Siemens will not discuss the affect of job reductions for specific functional areas, such as research and development or work on specific I.T. applications. However, the reductions will not impair customer service, according to the spokesperson. "Part of the transformation effort across Siemens is to have more employees in customer focused roles, of which service is obviously one."
The job reductions are part of a substantial reorganization to reposition Siemens AG during a global economic downturn and save $1.8 billion by 2010. The company also is battling corruption charges stemming from the awarding of contracts in several business units.
So not even the really big boys offering expensive EHRs can offer iron clad CCHIT- "assurance"...
For a more complete MS Word document with relevant citations check out: http://www.box.net/shared/static/qt4qcgcpg2.doc If any vendor has any good/bad news that can affect the above poster standings, please let me know!
If your CCHIT Hall of Shame list has a subset called: "Terminally Overpriced", please put Greenway at the top of the list. plz.thx.
>>> "Terminally Overpriced"...
How about my new EMROPOLY game:
* RR = "railroaded"
URL: http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e103/alborgmd/Political/EMROPOLY3.png
There are still empty spaces- did I leave anything out?
Al
That is awesome. I may have to print that out and hang it in my cube.
Tom Natt Northeast Sales athenahealth 888.652.8200 ext. 1237 tnatt@athenahealth.com www.athenahealth.com
Disclaimer- I work for athenahealth, the views expressed are my own and do not represent the thoughts or opinions of athenahealth.
Al, do you know if Siemen's has an outpatient small office product?
If not, then the flow of logic that Siemen's IT layoffs are a result of CCHIT burdens which translates to an unaffordable EMR makes no sense.
That's almost like complaining that Gulfstream doesn't make an inexpensive, affordable Jet for the private newbie pilot.
Hi Cyath:
Not that I know of- the Siemen's INVISION Clinicals is an inpatient EMR.
My position is a response to CCHIT's assertion that they somehow provide some nebulous "assurance" (a quote from Dr. Leavitt) that those that get certified are stable, and should be better EMR products as compared to noncertified EMRs. My contention has always been that these EMRs can just as often have the same financial problems as their smaller competitors. When I think of "assurance", I think that the smaller vendors offer better assurance because less of your money is at risk. They can assure you that you won't lose it all if you end up unable to install the program or later have to deinstall it. Just like the Titanic was deemed unsinkable because it was large, majestic, and had 4 funnels- when it sank, it caused a lot more damage than would have their smaller competitors at the time.
It does stand to reason, though, that whenever you tax an entity, you eat into its profits and the chances that the company will survive diminish. In the EMR industry, even the "enterprise" vendors run on slim margins and such excessive costs can result in financial difficulties. The cost of CCHIT, like any other operating cost will be passed on to the end user, and we've shown in the past that the average CCHIT certified EHR is about twice as expensive as the EMR that is NOT certified. It is difficult to raise prices and still remain competitive... this results in CCHIT certified EMRs being LESS competitive in the long run.
I do not know where Siemens has screwed up leading to the layoffs, although I wish that I were a fly on the wall in their last corporate meeting! In a company that big even I would not expect that CCHIT had anything to do with its malaise.
Wow! I'm surprised that this thread has survived so long. Siemens is a banner sponsor here. Nick, when are you going to pull the plug? BTW: Siemens employs 480,000 worldwide. I doubt anyone from Siemens visits here anyways, so stay the course.
Al, maybe a year or 2 ago some people might have thought that CCHIT would be the sort of certification that would provide some level of comfort that a product would perform as advertized- but I don't think that anyone really believes any more.
You're right, Cyath- at least physicians seem to know what it's all about. Other countries have also quietly begun to shun CCHIT- there was a time when they even opened up a headquarters in Belgium and had eyes on Canada and Asia.
It's the politicians that have to wake up to the reality (both Dems and Rep). <sigh> Thanks to the internet, we've been able to get the word out without the money nor the corporate and governmental backing that CCHIT had.
Bibliography:
I guess that they wanted it to happen, but fortunately for everyone the world has seen the hype for what it is- an advertisement scheme for "big boy" EHR vendors.
alborg: I guess that they wanted it to happen, but fortunately for everyone the world has seen the hype for what it is- an advertisement scheme for "big boy" EHR vendors.
Actually Al, I think you have this backwards. Large medical groups and hospitals send out a huge FRP for the big vendors to review and reply for consideration. When you are committing millions of dollars to a project, you can afford to have doctors, IT staff and legal counsel review the proposal and do detailed due dilligence. You can structure an agreement on a sliding scale or pay-for-performance metric for the EMR. Things like AC reports, CCHIT, and KLAS rankings are nice, but we all know that they are usually nothing more than window dressing. The smaller vendors don't usually compete in this arena because of the vertically-integrated enterprise architiecture that many hospitals are requiring.
It's the small office or solo doc that has limited resources and stands to be burned by a flashy inexpensive EMR that promises the world one day and is out of business the next. It's in those cases that docs would like some sort of UL or Good Housekeeping seal of approval that a third party can provide. I suppose the original intent of CCHIT was to give that level of confidence.
Discussion sites like this one, docsboard, Sermo, and now a new one that I've been reading of late, the "National Enquirer" of EMR sites, HISTalk are great resources and do a much better job than any biased site that promises an independent recommendations all the while accepting kickbacks. THESE are the sites for the small purchaser.
One of the main problems with CCHIT is the cost and the seemly end-of-year distribution scheme where the founding vendors stand to make money on the backs of their smaller competitors.
I'm not sure about how well large medical groups and hospitals fare- heck, with this Siemens thing my own hospital stands to lose its $14 million dollar investment if Siemens goes under.
Anyway, about the likelihood of Siemen's going under...doubt it. It's a huge multinational corporation. It can probably restructure a thousand times before going under. As for the inpatient EMR offering, it's probably no bigger than a pimple on the ass of an elephant in their portfolio. CPOE and other hospital HIS are a much bigger portion no doubt. I think when someone told them they needed to apply for CCHIT certification, they probably said, "fine, do you want a check, Traveller's Cheques, cash, Diner's Club or PayPal?"
If it wasn't a money maker or a "value added" product, they'd probably sell it off to GE. Heck, Amicore is one of many EMR's in Misys' portfolio and it's still being fully supported after all these years. Seems like EMR software doesn't die, it just gets adopted by new parents.
alborg: One of the main problems with CCHIT is the cost and the seemly end-of-year distribution scheme where the founding vendors stand to make money on the backs of their smaller competitors. I'm not sure about how well large medical groups and hospitals fare- heck, with this Siemens thing my own hospital stands to lose its $14 million dollar investment if Siemens goes under.
Steady Al, Siemens is a multibillion dollar corp. - don't think they are going under any time soon.
BTW,(and I know that I am going to regret starting down this path) what "seemly end-of-year distribution scheme" are you referring to? You know we are involved in so many I can't keep up. Wait, maybe this time we're a victim...